Ahc spin-offs from the stg-44 as main players in the cold war page 4 alternate history discussion a gaseous mixture contains

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Click to expand…Indeed, in that stuff might lay some insight into where the Heer was headed given the engineers were taken from Germany. I see a lot of echoes of German thought playing out in Soviet developments, they both drew lessons from each other and the war in the East. I never understood what took so long to put shields on the M2 mounted on the M59 then M113, as if no one thought the enemy might shoot back? Even then it was supposed to be dismounted for ground action as far as I can tell. But then the US Army also assumed the M14 was it, the M60 never quite fit despite the obvious example of the Germans and the dire gap left by the BAR that spawned it as the Squad base of fire. The full-auto M14, an ersatz SAW, was the way the Army saw it. But that is not a true base of fire, even the RPD/RPK was not, but it seems to have been a workable compromise for troops elsewise supported by yet bigger and better fires. I can go on and on about the US evolution and how we seem to have gone right back into the same rut.

Indeed, in that stuff might lay some insight into where the Heer was headed given the engineers were taken from Germany. I see a lot of echoes of German thought playing out in Soviet developments, they both drew lessons from each other and the war in the East. I never understood what took so long to put shields on the M2 mounted on the M59 then M113, as if no one thought the enemy might shoot back? Even then it was supposed to be dismounted for ground action as far as I can tell. But then the US Army also assumed the M14 was it, the M60 never quite fit despite the obvious example of the Germans and the dire gap left by the BAR that spawned it as the Squad base of fire. The full-auto M14, an ersatz SAW, was the way the Army saw it. But that is not a true base of fire, even the RPD/RPK was not, but it seems to have been a workable compromise for troops elsewise supported by yet bigger and better fires. I can go on and on about the US evolution and how we seem to have gone right back into the same rut.

Purpose of design needs to be considered just as much as usage. Otherwise it would be a perfectly accurate to call the 7.62mm NATO a "widespread caliber for aircraft armament" and start making arguments about its viability against jets just because it’s numerically widespread in armament subsystems for helicopters and certain gunships.

Federov chose 6.5 Jap as the round because it was the lowest powered rifle round in any reasonable availability in Russia (due to their use of the Arisake and 6.5mm Japanese as a stop-gap). Had that happened to be 7mm Mauser, it’s what he would have used, and it speaks nothing of the "placement" of the cartridge. Or the role of the Avtomat as a weapon.

Or does anyone here entertain some stupid ideas of claiming 35-55 Winchester was actually the 5.56mm NATO but back in the 1880’s and Winchester was somehow visionary and attempting to bring the concept of the modern assault rifle, but everyone was just too stupid and stubborn to realize it?

Now the reality is that the Avtomat was utter crap as a practical general issue weapon, stupidly complex, and firing an overpowered round for an assault rifle. If anyone adopted this as their general issue arm, they’d be the laughing stock of every procurement board the world over.

Second 6.5mm Japanese, and everything else in that class, is too powerful to realistically handle on full automatic with a shoulder fired weapon of around 8-9lbs. You can train up to it, yes, but it is outside of the practical expectations of the average soldier’s abilities when he’s just coming out of boot camp, while even my 11 year old, 4’3" 78lb niece can take the recoil of a 5.56mm, admittedly in semiautomatic.

You chamber an assault rifle in 6.5 or 6.8mm or anything like that, then your goal is quite obviously to extend the reach of the weapon beyond that of an intermediate round. Ergo not really an intermediate round, if you’re trying to use it to reach out to ranges near battle rifle territory.

Click to expand… You won’t get one. The definitions would change every time someone came up with a new cartridge or loading, and I’m not drafting a list of definitions year by year since the advent of metallic cartridges to satisfy someone’s nitpicking OCD urges.

Mid-late 1800’s, an intermediate round would be something like the 38-40, or the 44-40. An intermediate round as a concept is something that is sufficient out to a few hundred meters, or whatever the top end of your average range of engagement is, sacrificing energy and terminal effects at long ranges in exchange for comfort of shooting, retention of sight picture, ease of follow up shots, and often a higher magazine capacity (though with the advent of detachable box magazines, this is something of a holdover from the 1800’s), on the basis that anything beyond (for example) 300m doesn’t matter 80% of the time, and you can push it out to 400m well enough for the other 17%, and within 300m you’re much better off with your lower power cartridge than you are with an overpowered one that’s harder to shoot practically.

He wasn’t a smart man (at least when it comes to automatic weapons, the Federov’s internals makes that much clear), he wasn’t some visionary almost a century ahead of his time, he just came up with a crappy automatic rifle that external factors forced him to chamber in a cartridge that happens to share a caliber range with some of the stuff were trying (and largely failing at) now.

Additionally, it’s almost certain that the assault rifle and intermediate cartridge were not conceptualized by cowboys riding through Nevada and Utah, but that they were simply trying to meet other needs, and ended up getting the advantages from the sheer providence of the cartridge choice paired with the tube magazine fed lever action repeater, which was really only popular in the United States for some reason.

Winchester themselves likely only had the vaguest of collective knowledge about WHAT they were producing for cartridges, and certainly no idea of the factors driving demand for them, but were simply responding to the market, like some ancient animal that had just evolved photoreceptors responding to the sunlight.